Over the last 41 regular-season games, the Colorado Avalanche have a record of 27-11-3. Project that out to a full season, and you’d be looking at a 120-point team (the Sabres and Red Wings were tops in the NHL last year with 113 points). This year, the Avs have been high in the standings all season and currently sit in second place in the NW, just one out of first.
So why am I writing this?
The Avalanche appear to be in a freefall, and, perhaps, it’s time to start looking at coach Quenneville as a factor. The team has been playing brutally poor hockey over the last two weeks. In the last 5 road games, they’ve been outworked, outhustled, outhit, outeverythinged on the way to being outscored 18-7. Returning to the Pepsi Center on Saturday didn’t help, as the Avs were crushed by the Flames 5-2 (and the game wasn’t even as close as that lousy score indicates).
Joel Quenneville has had a solid career as an NHL coach. He’s coached in more than 750 NHL games and has won over 400 (406 and counting). He’s missed the playoffs just once as a coach (grrr). Quenneville has shown a knack for getting more than expected out of players; many Avs have had career years at some point under Quenneville’s tenure with the team.
And yet, his team seems perilously close to collapse. If the team doesn’t turn things around soon, I wonder if Q will be out of a job. Apparently, I’m not the only one.
With the way the team played at the end of last season and the beginning of this one, it’s amazing that this could even be on the table. But, some of the decisions Quenneville has made have me scratching my head. And they aren’t new issues.
- The goalies. Peter Budaj emerged in 2006 as our number 1 goalie. His steady play over the last 2 months (2.25 GAA & .908 Save %) was one of the main reasons behind the Avs late run. And, after shuffling between goalies all season long, the team seemed to thrive on the stability of having one guy between the pipes for most of the games. That stability lasted for all of nine games this year, evaporating when Quenneville instituted a goalie rotation. While it was working for a while, it didn’t approach the success of last season. In the end, it turns out that Jose Theodore really is Jose Theodore. This rotation was a mistake, and, unfortunately, just the latest gaffe in a long string of mishandling his goalies.
- Handling of personnel. Kurt Sauer was a healthy scratch for a large part of last season. Now, he’s part of our top defensive pairing. He watched from the press box night after night last year while Karlis Skrastins, Ossi Vaananen and Patrice Brisebois played inconsistent hockey on the ice. Jaroslav Hlinka spent about a week on the top 2 lines before being relegated to 4th line status. Welcome to the NHL, Jaroslav. Sorry you couldn’t get your game together in your 5-game tryout. Ben Guite, one of the few who has continued to play hard during this latest swoon, was a healthy scratch on Saturday, while Wyatt Smith, who has done little all season long, has played in every game and has even spent time on the 3rd line. I can live with “message” scratches (like John-Michael Liles the other night), but Q seems to really struggle with evaluating the ability of his players.
- Special teams. Oy, that powerplay. 0 for 24 (and counting). The Avs have scored more than 2 PP goals in a game just 3 times this year - and one of those was an empty-netter. Quenneville has insisted on keeping Joe Sakic on the point, even though it hasn’t been effective (I did read on Shane’s blog that Wolski has been back there as well lately - which seems like a step in the wrong direction). I don’t really understand the stubborn refusal to change. The PP is not working…so try something different. Use two defensemen. Try it. Please. The PK has been better than the PP…but has still been inconsistent overall - unfortunately, another hallmark of Quenneville’s stay in Denver.
- Defense. Why is it that guys who are solid defensemen in other organizations turn to jelly when they come here. Ossi Vaananen was a physical, stay at home guy in Phoenix. Here? A wimpy turnover machine. Kurt Sauer was a banger with the Ducks. Here? Solid, but not as physical as he could have been. Scott Hannan has gone from top-tier free agent to a trailer on other team’s odd-man rushes. Jordan Leopold has looked horrendous when he’s been on the ice. Defensive players seem to forget how to play defense under the Q system. Strangely, the offensive-minded blueliners are taking a hit this year as well. In short, defensemen seem to be unilaterally playing below their ability under Joel Quenneville.
I’m not advocating that Quenneville be fired. It’s not my decision…and I’m not all that excited about the prospect of having Tony Granato back behind the bench (what, you think he’s not a shoo-in for the job?). I do think he’s on shaky ground though. Something needs to wake this team up. Unfortunately for Joel Quenneville, that might mean his job.
Great article. Snazzy headline, good breakdown of the issues and admission that you’re unsure if the suggested solution would help. It’s exactly what you don’t get in “other” media coverage.
I was going to get it in on the coach Q posting as well but I think you and Mike have it more than adequately covered. I gotta start waking up earlier in the mornings
yeah, I didn’t see Mike’s post until this morning. Not that it’s a particularly unique sentiment, but I feel like he totally scooped me.
And thanks, I’m kind of pleased with the headline too
plus, you shouldn’t be asked to get up early today - you’ve got a Grey Cup to celebrate, right?
Decent post.
Granato isn’t a shoe-in for the job, and you are wrong about Hlinka (I get your point about him not being given enough time, but his game was never in question - he’s been one of the only consistent players on this team and can play in all situations), but Quenneville obviously needs to get canned.
Heh, I was saying this halfway through 05-06. People kept saying “give him more time! give him more time!” but when someone just doesn’t have it, they don’t have it, and that’s not going to change.
The worst thing that could happen to the Avs right now is for them to rattle off a ten-game win streak. That would silence the fence-sitters, and perhaps save this loser’s job until the trade deadline.
He has to go. Now. Today. Fire him and his entire staff right this very second.
For the goalie situation alone, he should be severely criticized. I know Dater wrote a piece about successful goalie rotations in the Denver Post, but the only one of those tandems that ever won a cup was the 1980 NY Islanders. The same Islanders team that benched their previous goalie and road Billy Smith all the way to the playoffs and consequently to the Islander dynasty of the early 80s. The other tandems? No cups. If the point is to with the cup every year then this whole philosophy of a goalie rotation needs a big time reality check. It’s never worked in the long history of the NHL, why in the name of Pete would it work here?
Q needs to lay down on the psychologist couch and realize that no, not every goalie is Roman Turek. You don’t really need a back up goalie when you hit the playoffs. You enter that race with the horse that got you there come Hell or high water. That leap of faith in having a starting goalie does have it’s benefits. For example, giving confidence to the goalie so he can play loose. Giving consistency to your team and in particular your defense so they know how to handle rushes, rebounds and just the over all style of play behind them. Of all the coaches in this league you would think that Q would know all this. He has the experience as a player and coach to know what works for a solid defense. It’s like he’s been cloned with someone who’s playing a video game and thinks he can just substitute in pieces that will always work the same way every time.
I’m not sure if you can fire him but this goalie rotation nightmare will not end. It’s madness.
The goalie-go-round is my number one pet peeve this season. I don’t believe I’ve ever seen a goaltending situation so woefully handled before. Giguere has to see this too right? That 5-2 blowout at home after the horrendous road trip has to have pricked his ears up right?
I wouldn’t mind the rotation if we hadn’t just seen Budaj establish himself as a #1. This just seems like a wasted exercise.
He’s certainly been frustrating, and some of his moves are indefensible (Guite’s been one of the Avs best players). The Lile’s scratch was bad in my opinion too, as I don’t think he’s been nearly the worst defenseman this season.
But It’s not time to call for his job. Despite the recent woes, they are still only 1 point out of 1st place in the NW. We all thought the NW division was the best in hockey and teams always go through swoons. Let’s let the season play out, he could have a master plan.
But didn’t we see THIS EXACT SAME master plan last season? How did that play out? That’s right, golfin’ early. I don’t wanna end up like the Maple Leaves where mediocrity is accepted because we have a history of winning.
How many disastrous seasons does this loser have to give us before we finally can his worthless behind?
Your argument that he needed to be given more time might have held a drop of water after the 05-06 season. It would have been dryer than Estelle Getty’s cooter last season, and there sure as hell isn’t any sort of validity to it this season.
He *HAS* to be canned.
wow for the Estelle Getty reference.
When you’re trying to quantify how little validity there is to the notion that Quenneville deserves more time with an analogy to dryness, somehow the Sonoran Desert in August or a Baptist Minister in Montgomery, AL on Easter Sunday just doesn’t adequately portray the level of dryness I was looking for.
I’m just thinking Bea Arthur’s cooter might have been a better choice, but that’s just me.
Bea Arthur, Betty White, Estelle Getty, you can’t go wrong.
Last season was a disaster? We have multiple dead salary cap weights (Brisbois, Konowalchuk, Turgeon,) We were going into the season with 2 rookies playing on the top lines. The start of last season looked pretty bleak, for the Avs. Yet despite this, they were coached to within 1 point of the playoffs, and were pretty good all season. It also saw the development of a plethora of young players like Stastny, Wolski, Guite Finger, and really Sauer too. He’s gotten Arnason to be an NHL caliber player.
Yes this season was supposed to be better, and it has been just not as much better as it should have been. The Avs have 3 more points at this time of the season than they did last season. They are 1 point away from the lead in the toughest division in hockey, the NW, with a game in hand.
I don’t want to end up like the leafs where we fire coaches because a small losing spell is cause to hit the panic button. Losing 4 of 5 is curable. If Theo and Skratsins get their head out of their ass against Calgary in Calgary then it’s 2-3 over the last 5 and no one panics.
Yes, last season was a complete and utter disaster. Salary cap dead weights or not, rookies or not, we had one of the most talented rosters in the NHL. We should have had no problem winning the division. We missed the playoffs.
They weren’t coached to within 1 win of the playoffs. They were coached to a point where at the deadline they essentially had to win out to have a shot at the playoffs. They had nothing to lose and started playing “loose.” They basically ignored Quenneville and played pond, and they almost overcame the deficit Quenneville had amassed.
Firing Quenneville isn’t panic. It’s something that should have been done two years ago. He never should have been hired in the first place.
Look, you don’t care if the Avs win or lose, and you have absolutely no expectations for them. If they miss the playoffs, you’re fine with that.
I’m not. Unlike you, I want the team to win. I *EXPECT* the players to play up to their abilities. And so do a lot of other fans.
Quenneville has to be fired. There is no logically valid argument to the contrary. Wave your pom-pons all you want; that’s not going to change anything.
So when they are successful it’s despite of Q, but when they lose it’s because of him? When Liles, Budaj and Theo play below expectations it’s because of poor coaching, but when Stastny, Wolski, Sauer, Svatos(this season), Brunette, Finger, Guite, and Richardson play above expectations it’s not because of coaching? There’s no Way Q’s coaching played any kind of role in those guys’ success? If you are going to blame him for bad play you have to give credit for good play too right?
I’m not okay with them missing the playoffs. Last season was brutally painful, but I am realistic too. They did not have one of the most talented rosters in the league last season. Look at Calgary’s roster compared to theirs from last season. That we were within a point was a testament to Q’s coaching, and your using last season as a mark against him? You’ve got to be kidding. The blame for missing the playoffs last season falls upon one Pierre LaCroix. He gambled on Turgeon, Brisbois, Konawalchuck and yes Theo. Konawalchuck was unlucky, but those other three bit him in the ass. Last season’s team was predicted to be last in the NW almost unanimously by the Mainstream Media,last season they exceeded expectations.
You can all it Pom-pon waving all you want, but it’s reality.
Yes, when they are successful, it’s despite Q.
When one player plays poorly, it’s on the player’s shoulders. When all or most play poorly, that’s on the coach.
You *DO* realize that you can separate good and poor play for good and poor coaching, right? You *DO* realize that you can win when the coach is coaching poorly, just like you can win when a player is playing poorly. And you can lose when a coach is coaching well, just like you can lose when a player is playing well.
Anyone who has been around the game for a long time, played and coached, can see the difference. I guess you can’t separate them. Casual fans always drive me nuts, because there are some things about this game that you just don’t understand. Ah well.
The Avs MOST DEFINITELY had one of the most talented rosters in the league last year. Sakic, Hejduk, Stastny, Wolski, Brunette, Svatos, and that left half-point-a-game McLean and 49pts Arnason on the THIRD LINE (if Q knew how to use what he had). Loads of offensive defensemen and a couple good defensive defensemen. Former Hart-winning goalie and a young guy challenging for the #1 spot.
The fact that you picked fucking CALGARY of all teams to benchmark the Avs’ talent against just shows how completely clueless you are. They had four scoring line forwards. We had third liners who outscored their second liners.
You know what, nevermind. Wave your pom-pons and act as if you know the first thing about any of this. I am not going to waste my time getting aggravated at having to try to talk some sense into a complete fucking imbecile.
You’re an idiot fanboy. I don’t know why you post here, you belong on the Avalanche.com forum, talking about how cute Joe Sakic is. That’s about as deep as you are capable of analyzing anything.
And you have completely made my point, so I thank you. Last season, at the end of the season the entire team played well together. It wasn’t a bunch of individuals playing well together, it was an entire team effort. That kind of team effort requires more than players, it requires excellent coaching. No poorly-coached team can go on that kind of run, despite your ridiculous theory of “they loosened up.” That’s some solid deep analysis right there.
And Yes I *CAN* separate poor individual play from poor coaching. Poor individual play *IS* Theo giving up the softest goal of all time to Owen Nolan right after the Avs best period and a half of the season in the first period of the last away game in Calgary. Poor individual play *IS* Skrastins in that game being so slow that he couldn’t get back to cover Ross for the game icer even though he had a step on him and it took the play a second or two to develop. Poor coaching *IS* benching Liles even though he really hadn’t been playing that poorly, and putting Skratch back in even though he probably needed a rehab start in Lake Erie at least.
And let’s have a look at that Calgary Roster, compared to last seasons Avs roster shall we…
Calgary 06-07
Iginla-Tanguay-Huselius
Langkow- Conroy-Lombardi
Amonte-McCarty-Nilson
Freisen-Yelle-Giordano
Phaenuf-Rehgar
Hamrlik-Giordano
Stuart-Zyuzin
Kippersoff
And the Avs 2006-07 Roster:
Brunette-Sakic-Wolski
Hejduk-Stastny-May
Arnason-Svatos-McClean
Richardson-Guite-Rycroft
Clark-Sauer
Liles-Skrastins
Klee-Vaananaan
Theo/Budaj
And you’re trying to tell me Calgary wasn’t more talented than Colorado last season? You’re seriously joking right? WE HAD BRAD FRICKING MAY ON THE SECOND LINE and it was the best move. As good as they were, Wolski and Stastny were rookies. Look at those 6 defensemen for the Avs and compare them to Calgary’s, you know what don’t because it is no comparison. And Kipper vs Theo/Rookie Budaj, laughable. Yes Theo is a former Hart winner, and Jim Carrey is a fromer Vezina winner as well. Former being the key word, not current. Ossi Vaananen played an important role in our season for god’s sakes.
Better yet look at all the roster’s in the Western Conference last season. Tell me which ones were less talented than the group of players above. Yes Dallas and Vancouver don’t score as many goals but their defense and goaltending was far superior than the Avs last season. Detroit, Anaheim, Vancouver, Nashville, San Jose, Dallas, Minnesota, Calgary. Please tell me which one the Avs were more talented than, top to bottom. The only case I could make is Minnesota.
I’m certainly no fanboi. (If you’re going to use the word at least spell it the geeky correct way for goodness sakes). I actually agree with almost all of DD’s points in the original post. Q’s definitely made some mistakes. I even called one of his decision’s indefensible. But I’m no internet chicken little who goes around saying “The Sky is Falling” after every little rough patch.
Here’s some more deep analysis:
2006-2007 Anaheim Ducks, During one stretch lost 9 of 11
2005-2006 Carolina Hurricanes Over one stretch lost 6 of 8 and 3 of 4 a few times
2003-2004 Tampa Bay Lightning Went 0-3-1, then lost 4 in a row. Had a stretch where they were 4-12-4
2002-2003 NJ Devils Lost 4 of 5, twice and 4 of 6 two more times
<2001-2002 Detroit Red Wings Lost 4 of 5 and 5 in a row at one point.
Wait they all played bad for a stretch of the season, oh and they all won Stanley Cups. The point wasn’t so much to defend Q, even though I did take that position, It was to say stop panicking, every team plays poorly. It’s a long season. Let’s see how they look at the All-star break to before making a rush judgment.
By the way your deep, well-thought out in-depth analysis so far has been:
Joe Sakic is pretty Dreamy though
Oops I got Giordano in the lineup 2ce for the flames, but the 4th line last forward doesn’t really matter Put David Moss in there instead, or whoever. The Calgary line-up last season was still more talented than the Avs, especially when you start looking at defense and Goaltending.
You know what, nevermind. Wave your pom-pons and act as if you know the first thing about any of this. I am not going to waste my time getting aggravated at having to try to talk some sense into a complete fucking imbecile.
You’re an idiot fanboy. I don’t know why you post here, you belong on the Avalanche.com forum, talking about how cute Joe Sakic is. That’s about as deep as you are capable of analyzing anything.
Wow. Not sure this was totally necessary considering you guys are just arguing about hockey on the internet, but hey, whatever. Nothing beats relentlessly insulting other people just because they disagree with you.
That’s not message board behavior at all.
Ever thought of switching to decaf, Thomas?
I don’t want to have to tell people what’s ok and what’s not okay here…but you are definitely going too far. Ease off the personal attack pedal please.
Holey Crap!! WHAT HAVE I DONE????? I’VE CREATED A MONSTER!
Of all the people to attack as pom pom waivers, it shouldn’t be individuals within this fraternity of bloggers.
The debate with Jibble is fantastic, even if I think you’re wrong. You got to keep out the personal stuff though. If you’re the same KL or that’s been around for a while, then you should know better.
I think there’s some place to argue that last years team overachieved, yet when you look at what they did towards the end of the year you have to believe that they might just have underachieved all season. I think that’s a good debate.
However, last year is last year. This year Wyatt Smith is still getting minutes when other, more effective players aren’t. The goalie rotation is without a doubt, the worst thing I’ve seen this team do, ever. I think you could fire Q if you had someone better lined up. However, the Avs still are on top of their division and they still can break this bad streak and get going as Jibble has pointed out. I do think Q has to earn his job in December, much more of this and he will be in big trouble making up points on NW teams when we don’t play them for a stretch.
Wait, are you saying Joe Sakic isn’t Dreamy?
I think one thing to remember, no matter how well or poorly a team is coached, is that A team will never play up to it’s potential all the time. It’s what makes sports fun and frustrating all at the same time. There’s an average level of play every team will have. Some nights they’ll play better, some nights they’ll play worse. There’s a reason good winning %’s are around 60%.
This means hot streaks and cold streaks are common. A coach is responsible for trying to get that mean playing level up, not for winning every game. If the average playing level improves, the winning will follow.
One thing that I don’t think jibble included in his dead salary last season were the two bonuses totalling $4.6M owed to Sakic and Blake.
I agree that the Avs were handcuffed last season and that in the end Q managed to pull them together. They should be better than they are right now, however.
PL screwed the pooch on several levels before he handed the reigns over the FG (damn French names are so hard to spell). Picking up Turgeon and Brisebois, both washed up, and both for two years, was awful. But the worst move? Trading for Theo (and his contract) instead of acquiring Luongo. And Vancouver fricken obtained Luongo for a relative song.
You’re right Bob, I forgot about those bonuses.
The bonuses are irrelevant. The Avs had a team good enough to contend for the Cup last year, and they didn’t. Part of that is the players, part of that is poor leadership (Joe Sakic, I am looking at you), but the biggest part of it was inept coaching.
Anyone who argues that Quenneville did a good job coaching last year is a pom-pon waver. Plain and simple.
Anyone who argues that the Flames had a better roster than the Avs last year has no ability to evaluate talent whatsoever.
Anyone who knows me knows that I am who I am and to ask me to change is a waste of breath. I don’t need to switch to decaf, I am perfectly calm whenever I converse online. I just have an extremely low tolerance for stupidity. When you’re right, I am going to praise you. When you’re wrong, I am going to point it out. When you’re wrong and you’re arrogant about it like our pom-pon waving friend, I am not going to be nice when I destroy your argument.
You guys have a little Avs blogger circle-jerk, and you’re going to jump on anyone who isn’t in your circle-jerk. I get that. Doesn’t make any difference to me, and there are enough of you here who know me well enough to know better than to think it would.
You guys have a little Avs blogger circle-jerk, and you’re going to jump on anyone who isn’t in your circle-jerk. I get that.
You’re nothing if not classy.
And I’m nothing if not a poor user of the tag. Damn.
Thomas,
I’ve been on the Avalanche web scene since the very beginning and I have a relatively good guess as to who you are. It’s true, you don’t back down. It’s true, when you believe someone is wrong you say so. It’s also true that you take it to the point of getting yourself banned on all these popular sites. I think it’s a shame because you often have original opinions that are often contrary to the general popular opinion. I think you can be just as contentious as always but you have to learn to do so without resorting to calling people complete idiots because they don’t share your hockey take. There’s a big difference between calling a person an idiot and calling their opinion idiotic and saying why.
Am I wasting my time? Probably, but I’ve seen you come and go all over these various web sites and in the end you seem to always explode over an issue that you take too far. But whatever man, you’re an adult and you can make your own choices.
One thing you simply cannot argue with however, Joe Q has the second best mustache in the NHL behind George Parros. See? Try as you might, you cannot argue with me on that one. It simply cannot be done without reverting to a Taming the Shrew level of calling the Sun the Moon. CAN NOT BE DONE. I dare you to even try it.
I missed any point where you countered my arguments and destroyed me. Please point that out because All i see is a lot of name-calling and stating of opinion as irrefutable fact. You haven’t made any good points, not one. Your argument has been “You’re wrong, oh and you’re a doodie-head.” I’ve listed good coaching decisions, poor coaching decisions, and reasonable arguments and you haven’t even addressed them. I’ve stacked up Calgary and Colorado’s ‘06-’07 rosters together and pointed out how much more talented Calgary’s was. (BTW you are absolutely delusional if you think that the Avs had enough talent to contend for a cup last season. )
Here’s what you’ve done. You’ve stated an opinion, and then insulted anyone who disagrees with you. You have done it so vehemently that you apparently buy into the theory that whoever states their opinion with the most bluster and volume is right. You’ve stated very arguable points and called them facts without even trying to back them up. When people say “Umm that’s not a fact” you insult them.
I guess what I’m saying is you’re the Bill O’Reilly of Avs fans.
Thomas, if he’s even old enough to vote, is definitely a George Bush kind of guy.